再看 須深故事《雜阿含經卷第十四-347》
現在,問題的關鍵就在於,有沒有不俱足初禪卻證阿羅漢的?
老實說,以前我也想你一樣,偏向於認為至少要有初禪以上才可能證阿羅漢.可是現在我越來越不敢肯定了....
僅僅提幾篇經文供你參考:
Yuganaddha Sutta ( AN 4.170) Four Ways to Arahantship
Posted by Buddha's Life and Teachings on February 22, 2011 at 8:30 AM
....Thus have I heard. On one occasion Venerable Ananda was staying in Kosambi at Ghosita’s monastery. There he addressed the bhikkhus :
“Friends!”
"Yes, friend," the bhikkhus responded.
Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever — bhikkhu or bhikkhuni — that declares they have attained the final knowledge of arahatship in my presence, they all do so in one of four paths. Which four?
1. Vipassana Preceded by Samatha
“Here, friends, a bhikkhu develops insight preceded by tranquillity (Samatha-pubbaṅgamaṃ vipassanam). As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path arises in him. He now frequents that path, cultivates, and pursues it. While he is doing so his fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies destroyed.
2. Samatha Preceded by Vipassana
"Then there is the case where a bhikkhu has developed tranquillity preceded by insight (Vipassanā-pubbaṅgamaṃ samatham). As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path arises in him. He now frequents that path, cultivates, and pursues it. While he is doing so his fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies destroyed.
3. Samatha and Vipassana Joined in Pairs
"Then there is the case where a bhikkhu has developed tranquillity and insight joined in pairs ( samatha-vipassanam yuganaddham). As he develops tranquillity and insight joined in pairs, the path arises in him. He now frequents that path, cultivates, and pursues it. While he is doing so his fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies destroyed.
4.
"Then there is the case where a bhikkhu’s mind is seized by agitation concerning the Dhamma ( dhammuddhaccaviggahitam manasam) . But there comes a time when his mind becomes internally steadied , settles down, and becomes unified and concentrated ( samadhiyati) ; then the path arises in him. He now frequents that path, cultivates, and pursues it. While he is doing so his fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies destroyed.
這裏的第四種方法,似乎說的就是不經過禪那?
老實說,以前我也想你一樣,偏向於認為至少要有初禪以上才可能證阿羅漢.可是現在我越來越不敢肯定了....
僅僅提幾篇經文供你參考:
Yuganaddha Sutta ( AN 4.170) Four Ways to Arahantship
Posted by Buddha's Life and Teachings on February 22, 2011 at 8:30 AM
....Thus have I heard. On one occasion Venerable Ananda was staying in Kosambi at Ghosita’s monastery. There he addressed the bhikkhus :
“Friends!”
"Yes, friend," the bhikkhus responded.
Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever — bhikkhu or bhikkhuni — that declares they have attained the final knowledge of arahatship in my presence, they all do so in one of four paths. Which four?
1. Vipassana Preceded by Samatha
“Here, friends, a bhikkhu develops insight preceded by tranquillity (Samatha-pubbaṅgamaṃ vipassanam). As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path arises in him. He now frequents that path, cultivates, and pursues it. While he is doing so his fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies destroyed.
2. Samatha Preceded by Vipassana
"Then there is the case where a bhikkhu has developed tranquillity preceded by insight (Vipassanā-pubbaṅgamaṃ samatham). As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path arises in him. He now frequents that path, cultivates, and pursues it. While he is doing so his fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies destroyed.
3. Samatha and Vipassana Joined in Pairs
"Then there is the case where a bhikkhu has developed tranquillity and insight joined in pairs ( samatha-vipassanam yuganaddham). As he develops tranquillity and insight joined in pairs, the path arises in him. He now frequents that path, cultivates, and pursues it. While he is doing so his fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies destroyed.
4.
"Then there is the case where a bhikkhu’s mind is seized by agitation concerning the Dhamma ( dhammuddhaccaviggahitam manasam) . But there comes a time when his mind becomes internally steadied , settles down, and becomes unified and concentrated ( samadhiyati) ; then the path arises in him. He now frequents that path, cultivates, and pursues it. While he is doing so his fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies destroyed.
這裏的第四種方法,似乎說的就是不經過禪那?
【中阿含經】第205經 五下分結經
阿難。猶恒伽河。其水溢岸。若有人來彼岸。有事欲得度河。彼作是念。此恒伽河。其水溢岸。我於彼岸有事欲度。身無有力令我安隱浮至彼岸。阿難。當知彼人無力。如是。阿難。若有人覺．滅．涅槃。其心不向而不清凈。不住解脫。阿難。當知此人如彼羸人無有力也。阿難。猶恒伽河。其水溢岸。若有人來彼岸。有事欲得度河。彼作是念。此恒伽河。其水溢岸。我於彼岸有事欲度。身今有力令我安隱浮至彼岸。阿難。當知彼人有力。如是。阿難。若有人覺．滅．涅槃。心向清凈而住解脫。阿難。當知此人如彼力人
阿難。猶如山水。甚深極廣。長流駛疾。多有所漂。其中無船。亦無橋梁。或有人來彼岸。有事則便求度。彼求度時而作是念。今此山水甚深極廣。長流駛疾。多有所漂。其中無船。亦無橋梁而可度者。我於彼岸有事欲度。當以何方便令我安隱至彼岸耶。復作是念。我今寧可於此岸邊收聚草木。縛作椑筏。乘之而度。彼便岸邊收聚草木。縛作椑筏。乘之而度。安隱至彼。如是。阿難。若有比丘攀緣厭離。依於厭離。住於厭離。止息身惡故。心入離．定故。離欲．離惡不善之法。有覺．有觀。離生喜．樂。得初禪成就遊。彼依此處。觀覺興衰。彼依此處。觀覺興衰已。住彼必得漏盡。
在這裏,初禪只是渡河的方便(船),如果一個人心有力,好像可以不需要?
阿難。猶恒伽河。其水溢岸。若有人來彼岸。有事欲得度河。彼作是念。此恒伽河。其水溢岸。我於彼岸有事欲度。身無有力令我安隱浮至彼岸。阿難。當知彼人無力。如是。阿難。若有人覺．滅．涅槃。其心不向而不清凈。不住解脫。阿難。當知此人如彼羸人無有力也。阿難。猶恒伽河。其水溢岸。若有人來彼岸。有事欲得度河。彼作是念。此恒伽河。其水溢岸。我於彼岸有事欲度。身今有力令我安隱浮至彼岸。阿難。當知彼人有力。如是。阿難。若有人覺．滅．涅槃。心向清凈而住解脫。阿難。當知此人如彼力人
阿難。猶如山水。甚深極廣。長流駛疾。多有所漂。其中無船。亦無橋梁。或有人來彼岸。有事則便求度。彼求度時而作是念。今此山水甚深極廣。長流駛疾。多有所漂。其中無船。亦無橋梁而可度者。我於彼岸有事欲度。當以何方便令我安隱至彼岸耶。復作是念。我今寧可於此岸邊收聚草木。縛作椑筏。乘之而度。彼便岸邊收聚草木。縛作椑筏。乘之而度。安隱至彼。如是。阿難。若有比丘攀緣厭離。依於厭離。住於厭離。止息身惡故。心入離．定故。離欲．離惡不善之法。有覺．有觀。離生喜．樂。得初禪成就遊。彼依此處。觀覺興衰。彼依此處。觀覺興衰已。住彼必得漏盡。
在這裏,初禪只是渡河的方便(船),如果一個人心有力,好像可以不需要?
身今有力令我安隱浮至彼岸。freshman 寫:【中阿含經】第205經 五下分結經
阿難。猶恒伽河。其水溢岸。若有人來彼岸。有事欲得度河。彼作是念。此恒伽河。其水溢岸。我於彼岸有事欲度。身無有力令我安隱浮至彼岸。阿難。當知彼人無力。如是。阿難。若有人覺．滅．涅槃。其心不向而不清凈。不住解脫。阿難。當知此人如彼羸人無有力也。阿難。猶恒伽河。其水溢岸。若有人來彼岸。有事欲得度河。彼作是念。此恒伽河。其水溢岸。我於彼岸有事欲度。身今有力令我安隱浮至彼岸。阿難。當知彼人有力。如是。阿難。若有人覺．滅．涅槃。心向清凈而住解脫。阿難。當知此人如彼力人
阿難。猶如山水。甚深極廣。長流駛疾。多有所漂。其中無船。亦無橋梁。或有人來彼岸。有事則便求度。彼求度時而作是念。今此山水甚深極廣。長流駛疾。多有所漂。其中無船。亦無橋梁而可度者。我於彼岸有事欲度。當以何方便令我安隱至彼岸耶。復作是念。我今寧可於此岸邊收聚草木。縛作椑筏。乘之而度。彼便岸邊收聚草木。縛作椑筏。乘之而度。安隱至彼。如是。阿難。若有比丘攀緣厭離。依於厭離。住於厭離。止息身惡故。心入離．定故。離欲．離惡不善之法。有覺．有觀。離生喜．樂。得初禪成就遊。彼依此處。觀覺興衰。彼依此處。觀覺興衰已。住彼必得漏盡。
在這裏,初禪只是渡河的方便(船),如果一個人心有力,好像可以不需要?
再看仔細些!(samādhiyati在相應部(雜阿含)常常出現的,如你所引過的SN12.23)freshman 寫:
4.
"Then there is the case where a bhikkhu’s mind is seized by agitation concerning the Dhamma ( dhammuddhaccaviggahitam manasam) . But there comes a time when his mind becomes internally steadied , settles down, and becomes unified and concentrated ( samadhiyati) ; then the path arises in him. He now frequents that path, cultivates, and pursues it. While he is doing so his fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies destroyed.
這裏的第四種方法,似乎說的就是不經過禪那?
我沒有時間了..(我自己算是剛開始學,許許多多東西也都不懂的..)
ps.我想有時先放慢步調,也有好處;像有時看到某些法友.師兄的一.兩句話,會一看再看三看.一想再想三想的,然而很多東西經過好幾年都還都不懂的,聽有些尊者的部份演講也是如此)~一起加油吧!
