雜阿含九九○經,想請教這一經英譯相應部的經號?

本專區以《雜阿含經》與《相應部》經文內容的比較研究為主
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peacecila
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雜阿含九九○經,想請教這一經英譯相應部的經號?

文章 peacecila » 2006-07-22, 23:04

如是我聞

一時。佛住舍衛國祇樹給孤獨園

爾時。尊者阿難晨朝著衣持缽。詣舍衛城。次第乞食。至鹿住優婆夷舍

鹿住優婆夷遙見尊者阿難。疾敷床座。白言。尊者阿難令坐

時。鹿住優婆夷稽首禮阿難足。退住一面。白尊者阿難。云何言世尊知法。我父富蘭那先修梵行。離欲清淨。不著香花。遠諸凡鄙。叔父梨師達多不修梵行。然其知足。二俱命終。而今世尊俱記二人同生一趣。同一受生。同於後世得斯陀含。生兜率天。一來世間。究竟苦邊。云何。阿難。修梵行.不修梵行。同生一趣.同一受生.同其後世

阿難答言。姊妹。汝今且停。汝不能知眾生世間根之差別。如來悉知眾生世間根之優劣。如是說已。從坐起去

時。尊者阿難還精舍。舉衣缽。洗足已。往詣佛所。稽首佛足。退坐一面。以鹿住優婆夷所說廣白世尊

佛告阿難。彼鹿住優婆夷云何能知眾生世間根之優劣。阿難。如來悉知眾生世間根之優劣。阿難。或有一犯戒。彼於心解脫.慧解脫不如實知。彼所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。或有一犯戒。於心解脫.慧解脫如實知。彼所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。於彼籌量者言。此亦有如是法。彼亦有是法。此則應俱同生一趣.同一受生.同一後世。彼如是籌量者。得長夜非義饒益苦

阿難。彼犯戒者。於心解脫.慧解脫不如實知。彼所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。當知此人是退。非勝進。我說彼人為退分。阿難。有犯戒。彼於心解脫.慧解脫如實知。彼於所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。當知是人勝進不退。我說彼人為勝進分。自非如來。此二有間。誰能悉知。是故。阿難。莫籌量人人而取。人善籌量人人而病。人籌量人人。自招其患。唯有如來能知人耳。如二犯戒。二持戒亦如是。彼於心解脫.慧解脫不如實知。彼所起持戒無餘滅。若掉動者。彼於心解脫.慧解脫不如實知。彼所起掉無餘滅。彼若瞋恨者。彼於心解脫.慧解脫不如實知。彼所起瞋恨無餘滅。若苦貪者。彼於心解脫.慧解脫如實知。彼所起苦貪無餘滅。穢污清淨如上說。乃至如來能知人人
阿難。鹿住優婆夷愚癡少智。而於如來一向說法心生狐疑。云何。阿難。如來所說。豈有二耶

阿難白佛。不也。世尊

佛告阿難。善哉。善哉。如來說法若有二者。無有是處。阿難。若富蘭那持戒。梨師達多亦同持戒者。所生之趣。富蘭那所不能知。梨師達多為生何趣。云何受生。云何後世。若梨師達多所成就智。富蘭那亦成就此智者。梨師達多亦不能知彼富蘭那當生何趣。云何受生。後世云何。阿難。彼富蘭那持戒勝。梨師達多智慧勝。彼俱命終。我說二人同生一趣。同一受生。後世亦同是斯陀含。生兜率天。一來生此究竟苦邊。彼二有間。自非如來。誰能得知。是故。阿難。莫量人人。量人人者。自生損減。唯有如來能知人耳

佛說此經已。尊者阿難聞佛所說。歡喜奉行

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Dogbert
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文章 Dogbert » 2006-07-23, 04:56

我查對照表是增支部10 : 75,有經文的可以再確定一下。

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peacecila
文章: 1429
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Re: 雜阿含九九○經,想請教這一經英譯相應部的經號?

文章 peacecila » 2006-12-07, 13:47

peacecila 寫:
佛告阿難。彼鹿住優婆夷云何能知眾生世間根之優劣。阿難。如來悉知眾生世間根之優劣。阿難。或有一犯戒。彼於心解脫.慧解脫不如實知。彼所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。或有一犯戒。於心解脫.慧解脫如實知。彼所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。於彼籌量者言。此亦有如是法。彼亦有是法。此則應俱同生一趣.同一受生.同一後世。彼如是籌量者。得長夜非義饒益苦

阿難。彼犯戒者。於心解脫.慧解脫不如實知。彼所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。當知此人是退。非勝進。我說彼人為退分。阿難。有犯戒。彼於心解脫.慧解脫如實知。彼於所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。當知是人勝進不退。我說彼人為勝進分。自非如來。此二有間。誰能悉知。是故。阿難。莫籌量人人而取。人善籌量人人而病。人籌量人人。自招其患。唯有如來能知人耳。如二犯戒。二持戒亦如是。彼於心解脫.慧解脫不如實知。彼所起持戒無餘滅。若掉動者。彼於心解脫.慧解脫不如實知。彼所起掉無餘滅。彼若瞋恨者。彼於心解脫.慧解脫不如實知。彼所起瞋恨無餘滅。若苦貪者。彼於心解脫.慧解脫如實知。彼所起苦貪無餘滅。穢污清淨如上說。乃至如來能知人人
看不懂這兩段文言經文,請教法友們有沒有比較好的白話解釋?或相關文章參考?如深解其意者,也歡迎發表意見。

謹謝

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Dogbert
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Re: 雜阿含九九○經,想請教這一經英譯相應部的經號?

文章 Dogbert » 2006-12-07, 15:37

peacecila 寫:或有一犯戒。彼於心解脫.慧解脫不如實知。彼所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。或有一犯戒。於心解脫.慧解脫如實知。彼所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。於彼籌量者言。此亦有如是法。彼亦有是法。此則應俱同生一趣.同一受生.同一後世。彼如是籌量者。得長夜非義饒益苦
我個人的看法是這樣:

「或有一犯戒。彼於心解脫.慧解脫不如實知。彼所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。」這句話是錯的。

因為於心解脫.慧解脫不如實知。彼所起犯戒是無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。

「或有一犯戒。於心解脫.慧解脫如實知。彼所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。」這句話是對的。

所以佛陀說「於彼籌量者言。此亦有如是法。彼亦有是法。此則應俱同生一趣.同一受生.同一後世。彼如是籌量者。得長夜非義饒益苦。」

意思是認為「以上兩種見解都是對的,而這兩種人會往生同一處」,是錯誤的看法。
peacecila 寫:彼犯戒者。於心解脫.慧解脫不如實知。彼所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。當知此人是退。非勝進。我說彼人為退分。阿難。有犯戒。彼於心解脫.慧解脫如實知。彼於所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。當知是人勝進不退。我說彼人為勝進分。
因為「彼犯戒者。於心解脫.慧解脫不如實知。彼所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。」這句話是錯誤的,所以佛陀才說「當知此人是退。非勝進。我說彼人為退分。」

因為「彼犯戒者。於心解脫.慧解脫如實知。彼所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。」這句話是對的,所以佛陀才說「當知是人勝進不退。我說彼人為勝進分。」

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ysq2836
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文章 ysq2836 » 2007-03-02, 13:34

「彼犯戒者。於心解脫.慧解脫不如實知。彼所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。」

個人以為這是敘述一個事實:有犯戒的人,與心解脫,慧解脫不如實知,他做過的犯戒的行為[隨時間]自然消失,這裏的自然消失意味此犯戒者在犯戒後未采取什麼措施,比如發露,懺悔等,聽之任之,任其自然消亡,所以世尊說此行者是退分

「或有一犯戒。於心解脫.慧解脫如實知。彼所起犯戒無餘滅.無餘沒.無餘欲盡。」

這也是敘述一事實,有犯戒的人,他一但證到了與心解脫慧解脫如實知的程度,他以前的犯戒的行為就自然消失了,這裏自然消失意味著以前的犯戒行為對該行者沒有了影響,所以世尊說此行者是勝進分

「於彼籌量者言。此亦有如是法。彼亦有是法。此則應俱同生一趣.同一受生.同一後世。彼如是籌量者。得長夜非義饒益苦。」

這個事實[兩犯戒者]對於旁觀的判斷者來說,此行者有這樣的行為[犯戒和犯戒行為自然消失],彼行者也有這樣的行為[犯戒和犯戒行為自然消失],那他們兩者應該轉生與同樣的地方,同樣的轉生結果,同樣的後世,旁觀者象這樣思考,判斷的,他將長夜不得安樂,受非義饒益苦

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Dogbert
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文章 Dogbert » 2007-03-02, 16:17

於彼籌量者言:「此亦有如是法,彼亦有是法。此則應俱同生一趣、同一受生、同一後世。」
彼如是籌量者,得長夜非義饒益苦。


上面這段經文就是說,若是有人認為以上兩者都是事實,則此人得長夜非義饒益苦 。這就已經否定了以上兩種都是事實的說法,怎麼會是以上兩種情形都是事實呢?

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freshman
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文章 freshman » 2007-03-02, 18:27

Dogbert 寫:我查對照表是增支部10 : 75,有經文的可以再確定一下。
At one time The Blessed One lived in the monastery offered by Anathapindika in Jeta's grove in Savatthi. Venerable Ananda putting on robes in the morning taking bowl and robes approached the house of the female lay disciple Migasala and sat on the prepared seat. The female lay disciple Migasala approached venerable Ananda, worshipped, sat on a side and said:-

"Venerable sir, Ananda, knowing in which manner does The Blessed One declare that the

one who lived the holy life and the one who did not live the holy life have both gone to the same destination after death? Venerable sir my father, Purana lived a holy life abstaining and far away from low sexuality. When he died The Blessed One declared that he is a once returner, is born with the gods of happiness. Venerable sir, my father's brother Isidatta lived a household life satisfied with his wife and children When he died The Blessed One declared that he is also a once returner, born with the gods of happiness. Venerable sir, Ananda, knowing in which manner does The Blessed One declare that the one who lived the holy life and the one who did not live the holy life have both gone to the same destination after death?

"Sister, that is how, it was declared by The Blessed One "

Venerable Ananda partaking the meal in the house of the female lay disciple Migasala got up from the seat and went away. After the meal was over and returning, from the alms round, venerable Ananda approached The Blessed One, worshipped, sat on a side and said:-

"Here, venerable sir, putting on robes in the morning and taking bowl and robes I approached the house of the female lay disciple Migasala and sat on the prepared seat. The female lay disciple Migasala approached me worshipped, sat on a side and said:-

"Venerable sir, Ananda, knowing in which manner does The Blessed One declare that the

one who lived the holy life and the one who did not live the holy life have both gone to the same destination after death? Venerable sir my father, Purana lived a holy life abstaining and far away from low sexuality. When he died The Blessed One declared that he is a once returner, is born with the gods of happiness. Venerable sir, my father's brother Isidatta lived a household life satisfied with his wife and children When he died The Blessed One declared that he is also a once returner, born with the gods of happiness. Venerable sir, Ananda, knowing in which manner does The Blessed One declare that the one who lived the holy life and the one who did not live the holy life have both gone to the same destination after death? Venerable sir, then I said:-

"Sister, that is how, it was declared by The Blessed One "

"Ananda, who is this foolish silly female lay disciple Migasala. With unripe wisdom what does she know about the range of the mental faculties of Great beings?

Ananda, these ten beings are evident in the world. What ten?

Here, Ananda, a certain person is unvirtuous, does not know the release of mind and the release through wisdom as it really is, as to how his evil virtues dissolve without a remainder. Has not practised what he has heard. Has not learned much. Has not penetrated to right view. Has not attained any release either. After death he decreases, does not attain any distinction.

Here, Ananda, a certain person is unvirtuous, knows the release of mind and the release through wisdom as it really is, as to how his evil virtues dissolve without a remainder. Has practised what he has heard. Has learned much. Has penetrated to right view. Has attained some release also. After death he increases, attains some distinction.

There, Ananda people measure - This one had those things The other too had those things. How could one be unexalted and the other exalted. Ananda, they measure for their unpleasantness for a long time.

Ananda, that person who was unvirtuous, knew the release of mind and release through wisdom as it really is, how his evil virtues dissolve without a remainder. He had practised what he had heard, had learned much and had penetrated to right view. He had attained some release too. Ananda, this person is definitely more advanced than the first said person. What is the reason? Ananda, this person stretches out to reach the stream of the Teaching. Ananda, who should know this difference other than the Thus Gone One. Therefore Ananda do not measure people, that measurement is lop sided. Either I should measure people or one like me should do it.

Here, Ananda, a certain person is virtuous, does not know the release of mind and the release through wisdom as it really is, as to how his virtues dissolve without a remainder. Has not practised what he has heard. Has not learned much. Has not penetrated to right view. Has not attained any release either. After death he decreases, does not come to any distinction.

Here, Ananda, a certain person is virtuous, knows the release of mind and the release through wisdom as it really is, as to how his evil virtues dissolve without a remainder. Has practised what he has heard. Has learned much. Has penetrated to right view. Has attained some release also. After death he increases, attains some distinction.

There Ananda, people measure......re.......Either I should measure people or one like me should do it.

Here, Ananda, a certain person is with much greed, does not know the release of mind and the release through wisdom as it really is, as to how his greed dissolves without a remainder. Has not practised what he has heard. Has not learned much. Has not penetrated to right view. Has not attained some release either. After death he decreases, does not attain some distinction.

Here, Ananda, a certain person is with much greed, knows the release of mind and the release through wisdom as it really is, as to how his greed dissolves without a remainder. Has practised what he has heard. Has learned much. Has penetrated to right view. Has attained some release also. After death he increases, attains some distinction.

There Ananda, people measure......re.......Either I should measure people or one like me should do it.

Here, Ananda, a certain person is with hatred, does not know the release of mind and the release through wisdom as it really is, as to how his hatred dissolves without a remainder. Has not practised what he has heard. Has not learned much. Has not penetrated to right view. Has not attained some release either. After death he decreases, does not attain some distinction.

Here, Ananda, a certain person is with hatred, knows the release of mind and the release through wisdom as it really is, as to how his hatred dissolves without a remainder. Has practised what he has heard. Has learned much. Has penetrated to right view. Has attained some release also. After death he increases, attains some distinction.

There Ananda, people measure......re.......Either I should measure people or one like me should do it.

Here, Ananda, a certain person is unbalanced does not know the release of mind and the release through wisdom as it really is, as to how his unbalance dissolves without a remainder. Has not practised what he has heard. Has not learned much. Has not penetrated to right view. Has not attained any release either. After death he decreases, does not attain any distinction.

Here, Ananda, a certain person is unbalanced, knows the release of mind and the release through wisdom as it really is, as to how his unbalance dissolves without a remainder. Has practised what he has heard. Has learned much. Has penetrated to right view. Has attained some release also. After death he increases, attains some distinction.

There, Ananda people measure - This one had those things The other too had those things. How could one be unexalted and the other exalted. Ananda, they measure for their unpleasantness for a long time.

Ananda, that person who was unbalanced, knew the release of mind and the release through wisdom as it really is, how his unbalance dissolves without a remainder. He had practised what he had heard, had learned much and had penetrated to right view. He had attained some release too. Ananda, this person is definitely more advanced than the first said person. What is the reason? Ananda, this person stretches out to reach the stream of the Teaching. Ananda, who should know this difference other than the Thus Gone One. Therefore Ananda do not measure people, that measurement is lop sided. Either I should measure people or one like me should do it.

Ananda, who is this foolish silly female lay disciple Migasala. With unripe wisdom what does she know about the range of the mental faculties of Great beings?

Ananda, these ten persons are evident in the world.

Ananda, with whatever virtues Purana was endowed, Isidatta had those same virtues. There is no difference in their destinations. Whatever wisdom Purana had, Isidatta had that same wisdom. There is no difference in their destinations. Both of them fall to the same category.
:)

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Dogbert
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文章 Dogbert » 2007-03-03, 00:07

謝謝解悟法友找來英譯本,兩相對照閱讀清楚多了,雖然有點小差異。

這個經文讓我想到雷迪法師說過的話,他說雖然禪修需要持戒,但是對於某些暫時無法完整持戒的人(譬如以捕魚維生的人),因此而告訴他不能禪修或是學習法義是沒有必要的,應該還是要給這些人一些鼓勵跟機會,還是會有一些幫助。

這其實還蠻有道理的,先從做得到的部分先做,其他再慢慢來。

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ysq2836
文章: 73
註冊時間: 2004-10-05, 08:00

文章 ysq2836 » 2007-03-04, 13:31

Dogbert 寫:於彼籌量者言:「此亦有如是法,彼亦有是法。此則應俱同生一趣、同一受生、同一後世。」
彼如是籌量者,得長夜非義饒益苦。


上面這段經文就是說,若是有人認為以上兩者都是事實,則此人得長夜非義饒益苦 。這就已經否定了以上兩種都是事實的說法,怎麼會是以上兩種情形都是事實呢?
籌量是思考的意思,彼如是籌量者,意為象這樣思考[邪思維]的人,當受苦,批評的是這種思考方式,以上兩者是行者在修行路上的兩種情況,這兩種情況在現實中都發生過,世尊意為對這兩種情況要正確分析,不能使用邪思維來判斷,使用邪思維判斷的人,當受非義饒益苦

具體的說,這裏的邪思維指的是:此亦有如是法,彼亦有是法。此則應俱同生一趣、同一受生、同一後世。

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