雜阿含經(351)--相應部SN12:68---------著名的“井水之喻”

本專區以《雜阿含經》與《相應部》經文內容的比較研究為主
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freshman
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雜阿含經(351)--相應部SN12:68---------著名的“井水之喻”

文章 freshman » 2010-09-15, 19:35

雜阿含經(351)


如是我聞

一時。尊者那羅.尊者茂師羅.尊者殊勝.尊者阿難住舍衛國象耳池側

爾時。尊者那羅語尊者茂師羅言。有異信.異欲.異聞.異行覺想.異見審諦忍。有如是正自覺知見生。所謂生故有老死。不離生有老死耶。尊者茂師羅言。有異信.異欲.異聞.異行覺想.異見審諦忍。有如是正自覺知見生。所謂有生故有老死。不異生有老死。如是說有

尊者茂師羅。有異信。乃至異忍。得自覺知見生。所謂有滅.寂滅.涅盤耶

尊者茂師羅答言。有異信。乃至異忍。得自覺知見生。所謂有滅.寂滅.涅盤

復問。尊者茂師羅。有滅則寂滅.涅盤。說者汝今便是阿羅漢。諸漏盡耶

尊者茂師羅默然不答。第二.第三問亦默然不答

爾時。尊者殊勝語尊者茂師羅。汝今且止。我當為汝答尊者那羅

尊者茂師羅言。我今且止。汝為我答

爾時。尊者殊勝語尊者那羅。有異信。乃至異忍。得自覺知見生。所謂有滅則寂滅.涅盤

時。尊者那羅問尊者殊勝言。有異信。乃至異忍。得自覺知見生。所謂有滅則寂滅.涅盤者。汝今便是漏盡阿羅漢耶

尊者殊勝言。我說有滅則寂滅.涅盤。而非漏盡阿羅漢也

尊者那羅言。所說不同。前後相違。如尊者所說。有滅則寂滅.涅盤。而復言非漏盡阿羅漢耶

尊者殊勝語尊者那羅言。今當說譬。夫智者以譬得解。如曠野路邊有井。無繩無罐。得取其水。時。有行人。熱渴所逼。繞井求覓。無繩無罐。諦觀井水。如實知見。而不觸身。如是。我說有滅則寂滅.涅盤。而自不得漏盡阿羅漢

爾時。尊者阿難語尊者那羅言。彼尊者殊勝所說。汝復雲何

尊者那羅語尊者阿難言。尊者殊勝善說真實。知復何言

時。彼正士各各說已。從座起去

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文章 freshman » 2010-09-15, 19:41

SN 12.68 PTS: S ii 115 CDB i 609
Kosambi Sutta: At Kosambi (On Knowing Dependent Co-arising)
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

On one occasion Ven. Musila, Ven. Pavittha, Ven. Narada, and Ven. Ananda were staying in Kosambi at Ghosita's monastery.

Then Ven. Pavittha said to Ven. Musila, "Musila, my friend, putting aside conviction, putting aside preference, putting aside tradition, putting aside reasoning through analogies, putting aside an agreement through pondering views: Do you have truly personal knowledge that, 'From birth as a requisite condition come aging & death'?"

"Yes, Pavittha my friend. Putting aside conviction... preference... tradition... reasoning through analogies... an agreement through pondering views, I do have truly personal knowledge that, 'From birth as a requisite condition come aging & death.'"

(Similarly with 'From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth'... 'From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming'... 'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance'... 'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving'... 'From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling'... 'From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact'... 'From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media'... 'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form'... 'From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.')

"Musila, my friend, putting aside conviction, putting aside preference, putting aside tradition, putting aside reasoning through analogies, putting aside an agreement through pondering views: Do you have truly personal knowledge that, 'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications'?"

"Yes, Pavittha my friend. Putting aside conviction... preference... tradition... reasoning through analogies... an agreement through pondering views, I do have truly personal knowledge that, 'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.'"

"Musila, my friend, putting aside conviction, putting aside preference, putting aside tradition, putting aside reasoning through analogies, putting aside an agreement through pondering views: Do you have truly personal knowledge that, 'From the cessation of birth comes the cessation of aging & death'?"

"Yes, Pavittha my friend. Putting aside conviction... preference... tradition... reasoning through analogies... an agreement through pondering views, I do have truly personal knowledge that, 'From the cessation of birth comes the cessation of aging & death.'"

(Similarly with 'From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth'... 'From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming'... 'From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance'... 'From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving'... 'From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling'... 'From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact'... 'From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media'... 'From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form'... 'From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness.')

"Musila, my friend, putting aside conviction, putting aside preference, putting aside tradition, putting aside reasoning through analogies, putting aside an agreement through pondering views: Do you have truly personal knowledge that, 'From the cessation of ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications'?"

"Yes, Pavittha my friend. Putting aside conviction... preference... tradition... reasoning through analogies... an agreement through pondering views, I do have truly personal knowledge that, 'From the cessation of ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications.'"

"Musila, my friend, putting aside conviction, putting aside preference, putting aside tradition, putting aside reasoning through analogies, putting aside an agreement through pondering views: Do you have truly personal knowledge that, 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding'?"

"Yes, Pavittha my friend. Putting aside conviction... preference... tradition... reasoning through analogies... an agreement through pondering views, I do have truly personal knowledge that, 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding.'"

"Then, Ven. Musila, you are an arahant whose fermentations are ended."

When this was said, Ven. Musila was silent. [1]

Then Ven. Narada said, "Pavittha my friend, it would be good if I were to get that question. Ask me that question and I will answer it for you."

"Then Ven. Narada will get that question. I will ask Ven. Narada that question, and may he answer that question for me."

(Ven. Pavittha asks the same questions of Ven. Narada, who gives the same answers as Ven. Musila.)

"Then, Ven. Narada, you are an arahant whose fermentations are ended."

"My friend, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended. [2] It's as if there were a well along a road in a desert, with neither rope nor water bucket. A man would come along overcome by heat, oppressed by the heat, exhausted, dehydrated, & thirsty. He would look into the well and would have knowledge of 'water,' but he would not dwell touching it with his body. [3] In the same way, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended."

When this was said, Ven. Ananda said to Ven. Pavittha, "When he speaks in this way, friend Pavittha, what do you have to say about Ven. Narada?"

"When Ven. Narada speaks in this way, friend Ananda, I have nothing to say about Ven. Narada except that [he is] admirable & skillful."
Notes

1.According to the Commentary, Ven. Musila's silence here is a sign of affirmation.
2.In other words, he has attained one of the preliminary levels of awakening (stream-entry, once-returning, or non-returning), but not full arahantship. As Mv.I.23.5 shows, even the level of stream-entry affords a vision of the Deathless.
3.The image refers to two common similes for the full experience of Unbinding: (a) it is refreshing & nourishing, like drinking water (see Dhp 205); and (b) some arahants experience it as if touching it with the body (see AN 9.45).

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文章 freshman » 2010-09-15, 20:59

在雜阿含當中,尊者那羅.尊者茂師羅.尊者殊勝.尊者阿難。

尊者那羅問在先。

在相應部當中,Ven. Musila, Ven. Pavittha, Ven. Narada, and Ven. Ananda。

Ven. Pavittha問在先。

名字有些亂。不過意思還是很接近的:

Putting aside conviction... preference... tradition... reasoning through analogies... an agreement through pondering views,

Do you have truly personal knowledge that, 'From the cessation of ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications'?"

Do you have truly personal knowledge that, 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding'?"

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文章 freshman » 2010-09-16, 02:35

這兩篇經文在辨別自己是否證果的問題上有非常重要的價值.

具我所知,現在的很多學佛者,在修習了某些南傳的內觀方法後,確實有了一些很好的體會,再讀佛經,他們會發現自己有了很多獨特的見解. 所以有的人就大膽地推測自己證果了........

如果仔細讀上面的兩篇經文,再仔細對照自己的情況,我相信有些人會發現自己搞錯了.

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文章 freshman » 2010-09-16, 03:04

前段時間在本論壇暗示自己已經證果的如覺,自從離開這個論壇上,開始在別的論壇公開說自己證果了,並且用量子物理來演示"五蘊"和"涅般"不能同時呈現(不相容).

如果仔細看一下相應部SN12:68當中的這一句:

"My friend, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,'

(用內觀洞察力with right discernment)如實正見:有之滅即涅般-------------當此之時,顯然是有五蘊存在,否則的話,discernment是什麽呢? :lol:

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文章 wsykm » 2010-09-18, 01:30

freshman 寫:
(用內觀洞察力with right discernment)如實正見:有之滅即涅般-------------當此之時,顯然是有五蘊存在,否則的話,discernment是什麽呢? :lol:
如果说涅槃是五蕴存在,那请问法友,阿罗汉身坏命终后又该这样称呼呢?

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文章 freshman » 2010-09-18, 04:23

阿羅漢身壞命終後是"無余涅磐", 之前是"有余涅磐", 都是涅磐.

白馬,黑馬------都是馬.

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文章 wsykm » 2010-09-18, 14:57

freshman 寫:阿羅漢身壞命終後是"無余涅磐", 之前是"有余涅磐", 都是涅磐.

白馬,黑馬------都是馬.
,“諸比丘,色是壞法,彼色滅涅槃是不壞法。受、想、行、識是壞法,彼識滅涅槃是不壞法。”『雜阿含51經』 以及 “彼色是無常、苦、變易之法。若彼色受陰(受想行識受陰)永盡無餘,究竟舍離、滅盡、離欲、寂沒,余陰更不相續、不起、不出,是名為妙,是名寂靜,是名舍離,一切有餘愛盡、無欲、滅盡、涅槃。”『雜阿含61經』 還有“若有比丘于老、病、死,厭、離欲、滅盡,不起諸漏,心善解脫,是名比丘得見法般涅槃” 【雜阿含365經】 個人認為,從以上經文 可明顯看出:涅槃是指諸漏已盡、不受后有的阿羅漢聖者身壞命終后的狀態。而阿羅漢生前則稱作“見法涅槃”,也就是經文常說的“能自作證,我生已盡乃至不受後有”。

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文章 freshman » 2010-09-18, 21:10

從以上經文我看不出法友所認為的意思。

我認為:這裏的“見法涅槃”不是看見涅槃的意思。就像這個主題要討論的“井水之喻”一樣,初果才是“看見涅槃”。

我認為:這裏的“見法涅槃”應該是“現法涅槃”的意思。

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文章 freshman » 2010-09-19, 18:25

freshman 寫:有異信.異欲.異聞.異行覺想.異見審諦忍。有如是正自覺知見生。
這個經文真的是值得花大力氣深入探究。關於上面的那段如何理解,我在網上看到了一段很有價值的研究:

1.〔異信〕:aññatra saddhāya,(annatra, 除了…..之外),依據菩提比丘的英譯,〔異信〕為apart from faith離開信仰,Rahula的英譯為without faith,顧法嚴譯為〔不靠信仰〕,楊郁文註解譯為〔除了信仰之外〕,《瑜伽師地論》譯為〔遠離信他〕,《空之探究》譯為〔不是信仰〕,《雜阿含313經》譯為〔異信〕,此處我譯為〔不依信仰〕。

2.〔異欲〕:aññatra ruciyā,依據菩提比丘的英譯〔異欲〕為apart from personal preference 離開個人喜好,Rahula的英譯為without liking or inclination,顧法嚴譯為〔沒有貪喜偏愛〕,楊郁文註解譯為〔除了個人喜好之外〕,《瑜伽師地論》譯為〔遠離欣樂行相〕,《空之探究》譯為〔不是希欲〕,《雜阿含313經》譯為〔異欲〕,此處我譯為〔不依個人喜好〕。

3.〔異聞〕:aññatra anussavāa,依據菩提比丘的英譯〔異聞〕為apart from oral tradition離開口耳相傳的傳統,Rahula的英譯為without hearsay or tradition,顧法嚴譯為〔不聽耳食之言及傳說〕,楊郁文註解譯為〔除了傳說之外〕,《瑜伽師地論》譯為〔遠離隨聞所起〕,《空之探究》譯為〔不是聽聞〕,《雜阿含313經》譯為〔異聞〕,此處我譯為〔不依口耳相傳的傳說〕,此處指的是印度古老的婆羅門聖典:三《吠陀》,依口誦傳承而代代相傳的教導。

4.〔異行覺想〕:aññatra ākāraparivitakkā,依據菩提比丘的英譯為apart from reasoned reflection離開合理的考慮,Rahula的英譯為without considering apparent reasons,顧法嚴譯為〔不考慮表面的理由〕,楊郁文註解譯為〔除了普遍尋求、推度、思考諸法行相之外〕,《瑜伽師地論》譯為〔遠離週遍尋思〕,《空之探究》譯為〔不是覺想〕,《雜阿含313經》譯為〔異行思惟〕,此處我譯為〔不依推理〕。

5.〔異見審諦忍〕:aññatra diṭṭhinijjhānakkhantiyā annatra,依據菩提比丘的英譯,為apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it離開深思後所接受的見解,Rahula的英譯為without delight in the speculations of opinions,顧法嚴譯為〔不耽於揣測的臆見〕,楊郁文註解譯為〔除了見解、審慮之外〕,《瑜伽師地論》譯為〔遠離見審察忍〕,《空之探究》譯為〔不是見審諦忍〕,《雜阿含313經》譯為〔異見審諦忍〕,此處我譯為〔不依深思熟慮所接受的見解〕。

6.有如是正自覺知見生:atthāyasmato paccattameva ñāṇaṃ,依據菩提比丘的英譯為has personal knowledge有親自的認識,Rahula的英譯為I know and see,顧法嚴譯為〔我確知明見〕,《瑜伽師地論》譯為:「謂現法中,於內各別內外增上所生雜染,如實了知有及非有。」( 大正 30p825c )此處我譯為〔親自體驗(現觀現證)〕。
(見http://yifertw.blogspot.com/2009/04/351-4.html)

我個人認為,這就是說:

初果對於四聖蹄、十二緣起、涅盤等的理解,不是“理上知”-----apart from reasoned reflection,除了普遍尋求、推度、思考諸法行相之外,除了見解、審慮之外,等等。等等。

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